The Values That Shape Our Work: Part 3 Transcript

Inclusion at parks and open space is about more than just inviting everyone. It's about actively building belonging, valuing every voice, and ensuring our work reflects the diversity of our community. It's about asking, who is missing, who isn't here in the room, and letting that question guide us toward more equitable and accessible ways of connecting people to our parks and open spaces.

Now I'd like to introduce Emma Dimitri, our community health specialist, who brings valuable insights from their work with Colorado State University Extension, connecting research and community engagement to our efforts. Thank you for being here.

Thank you for having me. I'd love to hear a little bit more about what you do and what does inclusion mean in that work?

So I work for Colorado State University Extension here in our Boulder County office. Extension is part of Colorado State up in Fort Collins, but because CSU is a land-grant university, part of their mission has to be having offices that take research and resources from the university and bring it to the people of the state. And this is a system that exists in every state across the country. And so I work here out of our Boulder County office. We have offices in just about every county across the state. But in Boulder County, we get the unique joy of getting to be part of the parks and open space department. And so I both get to have a foot up on campus and the university world and a foot with the county here in parks and open space.

And so for my role with Extension, so I'm our community health specialist, and I split my time between doing nutrition education and cooking classes and outdoor education, specifically to promote physical and mental well-being. When I started with CSU and with parks and open space two and a half years ago, the position was brand new. And so I came into an empty slate. And what was unique about the position when I started is that it was one of the first in the state like this. And I was specifically tasked with working with under-served communities, specifically the Latino community and other marginalized communities in Boulder County. And so that was brand new to Extension as a whole and new to the university of this idea of, like, how can you have a position that focuses on working with marginalized communities? Because historically, Extension is a pretty white-serving, rural-serving organization and has a really large amount of community trust in that space, but was underutilized and wasn't reaching diverse communities in more urban spaces and especially in the front range of Colorado. So that's where I got to come in and build a new position and set of programming up from the ground and to lean on the resources from parks and open space and from people doing similar work across the county.

That seems like a huge lift and a huge ask, especially considering that this was a new position with a completely new lens. Can you talk about what that experience was like? What does it mean having applying an inclusion lens to this very fresh, very new work?

Yeah, so the way I looked at it coming in is I was new to Colorado as well and really early on in my career. And I went to the community and asked, what would you want this position to look like? Because I had no expectation of what sort of work I should be doing. And my manager at the time felt similarly of this position should go in the direction of the community. The position description was written based on a community needs assessment and has always been rooted in the needs of Boulder County residents. And so I started working with other organizations across the county, people in parks, people in public health, housing and human services, as well as different nonprofits and community groups and go in and say like, hey, I have all these resources from the university. I have these resources from the county. What sort of programming would you want to see? What would be most beneficial for the youth in your family or for the older adults at the senior center? And building partnerships from that direction and building programs together in that way, we have a lot of community buy-in and investment and also get to utilize these resources that have sat up in Fort Collins or have sat in our extension office to help the people who most need it.

That seems like a lot of work and a lot of cold calls and a lot of cold emails, especially if you weren't from Colorado when you arrived here. What's it like developing trust with communities that may have never heard of CSU Extension before?

Yeah, trust takes time has been the biggest lesson learned for me. And on my first week in the office was a parks and open space all staff meeting. And we had a keynote speaker talk about how trust means showing up and taking off your uniform and bringing your family. I didn't have a family here. I don't have kids. So I started bringing my dog to community events and just getting to know people, talking to them, playing with their kids, hanging out in the same way that you would form new friends or go on a first date or whatever it may be putting yourself in a little bit of a vulnerable and uncomfortable situation to really get to know someone and know their needs and their wants and going from there. And I think at least in our organization and in extension, there was this idea that like marginalized communities, communities of color, like didn't want programming or like weren't interested in participating. But in reality, I think we just didn't, no one had ever asked. I'm shocked. I'm really shocked. Like, what an assumption to make. Crazy. And so it was really easy as far as how does the cold calling go or showing up going, everyone is excited. Everyone wants to be involved. Everyone has a voice and is excited for that to be heard. And so that was, that part of the process was really easy.

But like getting ready to go and show up and like be outside of my comfort zone was a task like I had to take on, but I'm more than willing to do because it's led to some really awesome partnerships and fun programs. I think what I heard was vulnerability is really important because you're asking people to show up who don't know you, right? Who may not trust you yet. And you work for a large institution, right? Predominantly white institution. And, you know, half of it, a government institution.

And so, you know, I agree for me, showing up to community means bringing arroz con habichuelas, rice and beans, you know, and sharing a part of myself and saying, I'm here too. I'm right here with you. And I don't think this work can be done without that level of just depth and honesty. Absolutely.

And I'd say like my personal benefit is I've gotten to explore my own identity and like relationship to race and ethnicity and my own family's culture through this position and through the connections and friendships I've made at our department and with other organizations. And so that's been a really special experience just for myself in the last two years.

I really love you bringing in the personal piece to this because what we're talking about is inherently personal. I completely agree. I could never leave my Puerto Rican identity at the door because it defines so much of who I am, how I carry myself and how I understand the world. So I really appreciate you touching on that.

I want to know a little bit more about when inclusion is really difficult because you just did an awesome job about talking all the ways that, you know, we're starting and have been working with community. But I know that there can be barriers and that it's not always easy.

A lot of the challenges that I've come up against come from the more institutional level. So I get to work as a team of one. So I don't have to convince other people within the county that it's all that important for me to go and do my job because I can go and do what I deem is important, which is great.

But as far as the barriers, like we've ended up forming a community engagement team here within Parks and Open Space because we found there was a lot of us from different work groups who were trying to work with the same partners and we're scheduling things on the same days and overtapping the same people, which wasn't going to lead to sustainable work for the community or for us.

And so now we get to work as a team and coordinate and share resources and also allows us to advocate for ourselves as a team to the larger Parks and Open Space community and past that. And then a similar process at the university of like convincing the university staff and the extension staff across the state that like working with marginalized communities is important and valuable and part of our mission.

And right now the ways we talk about that and the ways we do that work is a little bit more up in the air with, you know, federal policy changes and the way those impact higher education. But I've seen a lot of growth in the last two years, both in the county and in extension as to why this work matters and how we can do this work sustainably, both for our staff and for the communities that we partner with.

I think what's happening at a federal level is having a huge impact, you know, across the country and I mean the county for sure and how we do our community engagement. You know, I've heard directly from Latinx community that they don't feel comfortable going outside right now. It doesn't feel safe. It doesn't feel good.

And can I ask, you know, how has that process been? And I'm not necessarily asking for an answer, but, you know, there's a tension there of like we need to do this work. We want to engage with community, but also what is our responsibility, right, to being good co-partners and saying like, you know, you're asking us to take a moment, right? We can't do everything we've been doing it the same way because I can't show up right now.

Like for me, I can think of two ways that this has really shown up in my work in just the last few weeks. So I work a lot with the public health department as a health specialist and they have seen a huge drop off in people showing up to pick up like supplemental nutrition packages, like food packages and things like that because people don't feel safe congregating. And that's totally understandable.

And so we're working with them and they have an advisory board to come up with alternative ways that we can get people their food or their coupons or whatever that may be. But it's right now coming from a place of listening of what does feel safe, what does not.

And then I think in my role, I can also be an advocate. So as part of the university, there's obviously sometimes a lot of research pressure too of people like, hey, we want to work and do XYZ research project with the Latino community in your area. Like, can you help us form connections? And that's part of the role of extension.

And so a couple of weeks ago, I got an email with one of those sorts of requests and I said, absolutely, I'm happy to try to help. But also this is the context that we're working in right now. And like, just know that it might not be possible right now, even though you're asking really important questions and trying to improve the overall human condition and all of that, we might need to take a step back and they were super receptive to that as well.

And so now we're exploring like, what are the avenues that right now feel comfortable and are safe for community? And we know that that could change week to week, month to month. Thank you so much, Emma. I really appreciate you taking the time. Thank you. Today I'm speaking with Jarrett Roberts, Deputy Director of Community Amenities, whose role centers interaction between community and infrastructure, as well as provide support for engaging communities in our public lands.

Jarrett, when you think about inclusion in your work, what does that mean to you? I guess to me it means that everybody gets to participate in a way that suits them to their best. In work, I think it's a lot about empowering my staff and giving them a voice and making them feel comfortable and creating that space for them to use that voice. I really believe in leadership at all levels, and so I think ideas come from anyone, regardless of their background or their position. And so giving people a voice at the table, letting them know that they're heard is, I guess, really important in the way that I approach work and leadership.

Can you give me an example of a situation in which that has happened? A recent one would be I had a staff member come to me to talk about a need within our department to do a preparedness training. I think I was able to echo that voice to the leadership team and create a space where that team could come in and talk to our entire management team about that need, and then that became a department priority, and we made it happen within a very short period of time.

To be inclusive, you need to knock down the walls to allow people to have the voice in the right spot at the right time. And again, it doesn't matter who that person is. It just matters that the idea is there.

Something I heard you say is knock down the walls, and I think what you're getting at is the barriers to doing this work and to really practicing authentic inclusion. Can you maybe talk about what's difficult about inclusion? I think that authentic word you used is really key. I think it's very easy to do things in a way that are just pretending or showing, I guess, where I feel like the authentic you have to have the trust, and I think trust is not something that's given. You have to earn it, and it has to be built over time.

So when you talk about inclusion and trust, you have to develop those relationships, and it's not a one-off. You're not going to go walk up to someone, whether it's a staff member or an individual in the community or a whole group in a community, you're not going to walk up and just immediately have that trust. It's something you have to show up. You have to be your authentic self, and you have to participate to build that relationship, to get the trust, and then I think that's where the authenticity comes through.

And so your question about what is the challenge, I think the challenge is the authenticity itself. I think what you're getting at is we need to move beyond checking a box, right? Because I think in this day and age, people love talking about diversity, equity, and inclusion, and a lot of times it looks like doing one training a year, right? That may not even be mandatory.

You know, when I think about inclusion, I totally agree. I think it's about really developing a deep connection with someone in a space where I can say, you see me for who I am and every single part of me, and I see you. And based on that, having the trust to say, hey, something felt off here. Something didn't go right here. Or maybe I have an idea for how we can make this better. Would you say that's what you're getting at?

Yeah, I'm getting at that space for that voice where people feel like they can speak up, and it's not only allowed but encouraged, and it just part of the culture is important.

I'd love to hear more about how you practice inclusion in your work, particularly as the Deputy Director of Community Amenities. How does that look for the public?

Yeah, I think we've been talking a lot internally about our staff, but I think inclusion with the community is really important. I think it's important that when we think about, especially in my world and my realm, we think about equitable service delivery to our community, and we think about that in, like, starting with, I guess it's too late when we get to the building phase. I think it really has to start with the planning and, again, building the first, building the trust so you can have the voices and the people at the table and doing that in a way where you're engaging the community, not just those that have the time and the access to be able to provide that voice, but you're reaching out and building those relationships to people that typically may not have been involved in those conversations in the past.

Because if you've already gotten to the infrastructure and the building those amenities before you've done that, then you've missed the boat. You're not going to engage individuals or communities because you've built the wrong stuff or you've done things in the wrong way.

Sometimes it feels like we try to tack on inclusion to the very end rather than thinking about it as a framework and a lens through which we understand every single part of a management plan, for example. And that's not an easy thing to do, right? It is a choice to choose to engage people, diverse people, right? Not just the folks that are showing up to the community meeting, not just the folks that have the privilege and time to look on our website.

What does it mean to reach out to other communities that aren't present? I think I heard a really cool term recently that was if we plan for the outliers, we accommodate everyone. And I think when we think of especially what we provide at parks and open space, that's really important.

And I guess we could even like use that. You think about this podcast and to make this more accessible, I'm sure we'll likely have a transcript, which would benefit a lot of people, especially people who are deaf. But it also benefits the greater community. You or I might want to look back at the transcript and find that moment where we said one thing or the other, and we could look through the transcript and find it much easier.

And so again, by planning and designing for the outliers, we've actually improved everything for everyone. And that reminds me of a quote that says we're not free until we're all free. And I think what that gets is exactly what you're talking about, right? We need to think about the most disenfranchised, the most marginalized people in our community because when we center those voices, we inherently center everyone else as well. I'm an ecologist by training, so I also think of ecological systems and their robustness and how sustainable they are. And the more input you have from so many different perspectives in an ecological system, the more sustainable and resilient it will be. And I think the same thing could be applied to our infrastructure and our parks, is that the more perspectives we have, the more resilient they will be in the future.

I really appreciate you bringing in that ecological piece, because I think we have so much to learn from nature. We have so much to learn from the land and the original stewards of this land. It reminds me a lot of who has been here, who was here for time immemorial. I'm thinking about the Northern Cheyenne and Arapaho. I'm thinking about the U and so many other tribes that may not be recognized as well. What does it mean to learn from nature, to learn from them, and how can we incorporate those learnings? To learn from nature.

And we've, through our Indigenous Ways in Land Commitment Team, we have learned about a lot of principles that we can take and apply to ourselves. And some of those are:

•	Thinking back and forward multiple generations.

•	Thinking about what the land has to offer.

And I think recently you gave a talk about Betasso and you talked a lot about connecting with the land and being there and being willing to listen to the land. And I think that's something we oftentimes lose as public land stewards. We're very focused on working with our community and individuals and people, and we sometimes forget that the land has a lot to tell us too and the history and then previous cultures and groups that have lived on the land, that have had that intimate connection, can also share a different perspective on that as well.

It feels ironic, doesn't it? That we work for the public, we work in parks and open space, and sometimes we lose that connection. I wonder if creating a culture of belonging looks like spending more time outside as staff and connecting and trying to see how are other people experiencing this? And what can we bring back based on that? I wholeheartedly believe with that. I think it's so easy to put your head down and get stuck in spreadsheets and budgets and performance reviews and all that. And then you have a meeting out in the field and you remind yourself why you do this and the importance of this. And I'm sure that's a microcosm for our greater community where we like the idea of open space, but the number of people that use it on a daily or weekly basis, that could definitely be improved.

I want to know a little bit more about what does it mean to share power in terms of inclusion? And maybe we could take this a lot of different directions, right? We could talk internally about staff, we could talk about community, we could talk about Indigenous community. But I just would like to hear a little bit more of your thoughts around what does sharing power mean in the context of inclusion?

I mean, my mind goes to staff just because that's where I'm at right now. And I think, again, it's that voice piece of it. And it's creating that voice and that space so that people can be, I don't want to say at the table because that's not the right term, but when we're making decisions or thinking about the future or planning, it's having all those voices in the room so we have that diverse representation of ideas and backgrounds. I think we missed the boat when we don't do that.

And what role does equity play in that? Equity to me, I remember there's that really great image of providing the stools and seeing who can see over the fence and who can't see over the fence. And equality is that you provide everybody with the same stool and equity is where you make sure that everybody, again, has that seat at that table or that voice. And so I think it's different for every person and it's a little bit messy in some ways. I go back to that original thought of inclusivity is allowing everyone to show up and participate in their best way. I think you need to provide different things to different people, whether that's individuals or groups, to be able to have that voice.

As a staff member, that might be inviting someone to a meeting that is outside of their role, but you get a different perspective that way. As a community, it might mean that we're spending extra time trying to reach out and build those authentic relationships so that communities will show up and give their perspective as we do planning processes. Accommodating everyone differently. People are going to require different things in order to be able to show up as their best selves. What I see as great leadership is someone or a group of people that are able to open that door, right? And say, I see you for who you are and this is what you're telling me you need. I can offer that so that you can show up at this table as well.

Thank you so much, Jarrett. It's been lovely talking to you today. Thank you. We're joined today by Lucero Torres, a senior park ranger whose experience provides a crucial perspective on how inclusion plays out internally through our hiring practices and our interactions with the public. Thank you so much for being here.

Thank you. How does inclusion show up in your work as a senior park ranger? Honestly, it's mostly through hiring. I'm like the primary hiring manager within our work group. And so inclusion for me is really through our hiring practices. You know, we're lucky enough that with our full timers, we don't have too much turnover when it comes to hiring, but every year we're constantly hiring our seasonal rangers. You know, when it comes to inclusion, we're constantly looking at, hey, what's missing on our team? That's a conversation that we're always asking ourselves because it's never the same. In previous organizations that I've been at, it's kind of always been, hey, here's the job description and it's never like something that's changed or anything. Whereas here, it's always, hey, what's our goal for this upcoming season? For example, for this year and for last year as well, we're working really closely with our Spanish-speaking communities.

When we're considering what does our team need and who do we want for this upcoming year, we have to rewrite our job descriptions pretty frequently. So I think when it comes to like inclusion, it's always changing. It can't always be the same. Hiring, you have to be kind of willing to have change because every season is going to be totally different. And that's something that I hadn't experienced before with the different agencies that I've worked for.

So I think it's really awesome that my current supervisor is like, no, no, no, let's take time to put in some effort and really consider like, who do we want to bring on? What does our community need? And then go from there. So I think part of my job and I mean, sometimes I want to pull my hair out because I get a little crazy, but it makes it totally worth it because our team is really awesome this year. And I say it every year, but I'm so glad that I'm able to say it every year. And it's because we're able to constantly change and adapt based on what our community needs are. But you have to. And I think that's a big piece with inclusivity. Sometimes people forget that, I think.

It's really interesting to hear you talk about how it's very goal oriented. Like what is the goal this year? And what I heard you say is connecting with our Spanish speaking community. Can you talk a little bit more about like, what does that look like in practice? Like in the hiring process, how do you do that?

Let's see. So how do we do that? So I'll even start it from my own experience. So like before I even came to the county, I remember someone just reaching out to me about my position when it was posted. The fact that someone was even reaching out to me to say, hey, we have this position. And I think that you may be a good candidate for it. Like that's not something that I had really experienced anywhere else. Usually it's just like, I'm looking. Is there a position available? Let me see if my qualifications are like good for that. That's the bread and butter that we utilize.

So even with our seasonals, like we're reaching out for other organizations. Hey, do you know of anybody that's going to be looking for hourly work in the summer? We want to reach out to them. Like we can't guarantee them a position, but we want to get to know who they are personally. You can only get so much information from a piece of paper. So we have to do so much work on our end. So not only are we coming up with what is our goal for the summer, but we also have to like put in effort to get to know the people that we want to apply for us, not just rely on a million applications to come through.

So I think like part of that hiring piece is as hiring managers, we have to put in the work too to show them like we want you here. What inclusion means in this context is doing the labor of reaching out to find people. And we're talking a lot about, you know, people that may not see this position, right? We're going beyond posting on governmentjobs.com, you know, that I think a lot of people do and that like that's where it ends. Like we'll see who comes through. But if you really want to diversify, I think your workforce, rangers, and have a very specific goal in mind, then you have to do so much legwork.

And I know it makes me, it makes me filled with joy. It makes me feel really good to hear that, you know, you were doing that active work of trying to find like, who is that person that could fit in perfectly with what we're doing? Because it's so much more than you're right, like a piece of paper, and that doesn't really reflect a full person a lot of times. And we know that people of color in particular, it's really hard to get hired into spaces like these. And it requires that extra legwork, right? I think it goes again, moving beyond this like check mark of like, we posted it here, we did that, right? That's not enough. If you really want to find a diverse workforce, find people that fit into that, you got to do the work.

Oh, you have to, because how many times did I apply through USA jobs? And, you know, you're just like waiting for the email that's like, did I even get an interview? And then two months later, it's like, oh, you've been rejected. Did anyone even look at my resume or this or that? I think it's so important now being on the other side of things to realize like, no, we have to put in just as much work. I always look back to like, I was a seasonal for so long. You know, it's awesome being where I am in my career now, but man, it took forever to get here. And it's important to remember where we come from because there are so many people that are starting out where we started. So we can't forget that stuff is only getting harder. Seasonal work is only getting harder. So if we want quality folks to come and work here, we have to put in the work and show them like, hey, we want you here. We acknowledge all the work that you're putting in and we want to get to know you and see if you're a good fit for us. Yeah, we can't guarantee the position, but I want to show you that I'm willing to put in the work to get to know you and see if you're going to be a good fit for our goals this upcoming season. And when you do that, you can come up with an awesome team that kicks butt, right? And that's why we have such a great ranger team this year.

It takes time and like I said, I want to rip my hair out sometimes, but now we have like, you know, like one of the seasonals that we have this year, you know, she's bilingual Spanish and is going to be doing really great work with our team this year, has, you know, several years of ranger experience under her belt. So it's not like she is not experienced at all, but had we not like networked and figured out who she was, who knows if she would have even applied for us, you know? So it's us putting in the work to really find people and have them come out to meet our goals as well.

I think what comes up for me is when I think about like the corporate world, I think about a lot of like white folks and how they get jobs. And a lot of that times it is through connection. And a lot of those spaces that are predominantly white, it's like, you know, I heard from my herder, here's a referral, here's a referral. And a lot of times, like I don't see that same kind of practice happening among people of color because sometimes we're not in those spaces, right? And so like we don't get those referrals and you know, so much of what I hear you saying is like, let's create a network. Let's create a network of people that know each other so that we can do that labor to reach out, to make sure that your application is also considered.

And in that way, I think it's shifting the culture of hiring practices of moving beyond just one post. I really appreciate that because not only are you taking the time to meet and get to know a candidate, but that candidate is also assessing like, is this going to work for me, right? Like, does this make sense for me? And that feels more equitable, right? It feels like both sides are getting the chance to evaluate whether or not that's the direction that we want to take things in.

Yeah, absolutely. It's so important to create a space to keep people because that's so important. And like, I'll kind of bring it to my story where I've worked for so, you know, I've worked for like federal. I've worked for city. I've worked for state. Now I'm here in county. This is the only place that I've actually felt people want me to stay here. I'm not like tokenized here, you know? Like in so many other places, it's very, I haven't felt that way, right? This is the only place I've ever been, you know, compensated for speaking Spanish. That's like totally something I never thought would ever happen. So the fact that it's, you know, something that I have here, it's like, what? It's valued, right? It's valued. Like this amazing skill, like this amazing lived experience, sometimes really difficult matters here and that I belong here.

And we just have a few more seconds left, but I wanted to ask you, what is difficult about this? What is difficult about inclusion and belonging? I think what's difficult about inclusion and belonging is that it's the, just the word inclusion is so political. It's so hard to just tell people like inclusion doesn't mean exclusion. And that's so hard for people to wrap their heads around. And I think that's the hardest part. I mean, I think sometimes what ends up happening is people are like, why are you centering this person? Why are you centering this person? And we have to start having conversations about privilege, right? What does it mean for certain people to have more privileges than others? And what does it mean to center the most marginalized people in our society? Because once those folks are centered, everyone else inherently is also going to benefit. This is benefiting everyone.

Yeah, definitely. Thank you so much, Elisabeth. It was lovely talking to you today.

Yeah, you too. Thanks.

Resilience is often framed as bouncing back. But for us, it's also about moving forward with strength, learning, and support. It's not just about individuals. It's about systems. It's about how we build resilience into our work, our teams, and our relationships with the land and the community.

Today, I'm joined by Ernst Strenga, Senior Planner, whose work involves looking across long timelines to anticipate and adapt to change. Thank you for being here today.

Thanks for having me.

Ernst, how do you define resilience? I thought about that question. It kind of took me back to college and where I first learned about resilience and ecological resilience. Ecosystem's ability to bounce back after natural disasters such as fires and floods. The ability to regenerate and grow again with some of the same structure, function, and ecological processes that keeps the system going. And it's also tied to the diversity of species within the ecosystem and their adaptations that they bring and the ability to evolve over time,which just kind of creates even more, a stronger, more resilient system in the long term. And so I think the same is true of people and organizations like Parks and Open Space. It's our ability to withstand and endure adversity and become better and stronger over time. In my 17 years at the department, we've had catastrophic wildfires, floods, a global pandemic, an economic recession, and that's just to name a few things that we've experienced. I think just like the ecological resilience that keeps the ecosystem going, our department and community have been resilient through all that. And we continue to keep bouncing back and more often than not, we're doing it better and stronger once we have gotten through adversity.

I love the way that you framed that and you started with the ecological and then moved into humanity. Because I think it's so important to realize that we have so much to learn from the environment. And this is such a good lesson around the ability for the environment to bounce back and our ability to also do that. And to do that in tandem with one another.

Can you talk a little bit more about maybe like our connection to the land and how resilience plays into that? Being connected to the land, people's connection to the land, it's a reciprocal relationship, right, between nature and people. Through such things as the floods, right, we went back in there and restored many of the ecosystems, but made them more resilient. Figured out ways to work with nature instead of against nature. And instead of creating flood control channels to withstand the next flood, we actually went in and opened up the floodplains and allowed water to spread out across the floodplains. And so I think there's a lot of connections there between people and nature and working together.

I think there's two pieces to what you're saying, right? Like that human resilience and then that ecological resilience. Can you give an example of how that has more concretely shown up in your work? Maybe a project that you really enjoyed.

Right. Again, I'd go back to the flood recovery, you know, on the South St. Vrain on our Hall Meadows property. There's a lot of damage to the roads, to some of the homes that are along that corridor. And of course, a lot of impacts in the town of Lyons. When we went back in to restore that system, it was really thinking about, you know, not only about the creek itself and working with nature, but also thinking about the safety and protection of the infrastructure. You know, tried to tie all that together. And I think it's a very, it was innovative and a new way of doing creek restoration, especially post-disaster.

I want to take us in a slightly different direction now. Can you talk about when resiliency gets hard, especially when the systems that we work within aren't built sometimes for that long-term recovery? I mean, there's lots of things that make it hard. I think there's a little bit of, you know, do you have the funding and the support to do the work you're trying to do? So, for example, after the flood, we definitely had to work with the community to better help them understand, like, what we're doing is trying to make a more resilient system, both for nature and for people. And so, and then having the funding to be able to do that, getting the support from the funders who provide the funds for it. You know, I think just also just capacity of the staff and department have bringing in the right people at the right time can be a challenge for sure.

Resiliency is so layered, right? Like you touched on the, like, logistical bit, literally the funding, resiliency of systems and people as well. And so resiliency shows up in all of these different types of ways. And that makes me wonder, when does the idea of resiliency feel empowering? When does it feel good?

If you can bring the community along with you and, you know, do and complete the projects and to show the results, then that's definitely a way to feel empowered. And to know that you're, you know, we're meeting multiple objectives, right? We're protecting people and infrastructure, but we're also working with nature, helping to restore and helping nature to bounce back after those events. Sometimes those objectives can feel like they compete with one another. How do you navigate that?

They definitely can't compete with one another. And I think it's trying to figure out mutually beneficial ways of doing things, right? Both for the community and for the ecosystems, as well as other constraints that we may have, like the funding and whatnot. Like trying to fit all those pieces together. It can take time. It takes a lot of kind of coordination and strategizing and, you know, coming up with a plan and trying to highlight how you're trying to meet all those different objectives to the best of our abilities. And knowing that, yeah, it's not always like everything's going to be met 100%, but that we're trying to meet as many as we can. I think resilience at its best is that alignment of everyone's intentions of the logistics and everyone feels like their voice has been included in some way.

Thank you so much, Ernst. Thank you. I am now joined by Justin Atherton-Wood, planning group supervisor, who brings a strategic cross-disciplinary perspective to resilience across landscapes and communities. Thank you for joining me today, Justin. Glad to be here with you. What comes up when you think about resilience? When I think about resilience, I think about care, caring for our natural environment and our built environment, our human environment, and also our communities, be that our community of colleagues in our workplaces, our families, our greater community. So really like caring for each other, knowing that at some point we're going to have to call on that care to continue to thrive or respond to a disaster. You know what I mean? That seems like a lot of caring. It seems like a lot of different facets and different parts.

Can you talk a little bit more about how does resiliency look like? What does it look like when we're involving all of these features that you're talking about, the natural environment, the built environment, and the human environment? You know, we all bring strengths and passions and values to the community, our natural community and our human communities, right? So we bring those strengths and priorities and values, and everybody brings a different bit. And so in times of struggle, everybody can bring their bits. Or if you're a person that maybe can't bring it then, you can call on others to provide that support and assistance and whatnot, right? The care. I love that. I feel like what that perspective really gets at is a community orientation to resilience. Does that feel right? Does that sound right? Yeah, yeah.

Can you talk a little bit more about how that has shown up concretely in your work, maybe through a project? In lots of different ways. I feel like one of the things I like to talk about with my interdisciplinary teams is like getting people to focus on the strength that they bring, right? That element of expertise or, again, particular value that they bring. And really just like bring that honestly and authentically tends to balance out. I like to intentionally create groups that I know will kind of like balance each other out. One project that comes to mind where we came together as partners, this was a flood recovery project where we were ownership partner with another organization. And the way the project got off to a really rocky start as organizations turned to our strength and saw what the other partner's strengths were, like we saw each other for our strengths. I think that's where we really started to gain some positive momentum. Then as we hit bumps along the way into the project, we were able to show up for each other in a way that led to success in the project because these other challenges came up. We as Parks and Open Space could do some things to support a project turning out and the other entity could as well. And so we both got what we wanted. We also like brought something and got something, right? There's that reciprocity was really, really cool part of that project. And I think today we still see the benefit of how that relationship grew.

You said something really key that I want to highlight. We saw one another. To be seen. To be seen in your fullness means to also be able to admit the ways in which we're not going to have everything together, right? And that's where the other organization maybe comes in and has those strengths. I think that's what I really heard you getting at. Can you tell me what's a little bit hard about that? A couple of things. The first is it's hard to admit that you can't do it all. I feel like our sort of dominant culture around here is like everybody kind of does it all, right? And that's, I think, where resilience becomes a challenge because that's actually not really super attainable. So you kind of have to acknowledge that it takes community to have resilience and to get through challenging times together.

Can you talk a little bit more about that role of community in resiliency? I'm like a big tent person. Yeah. I say this a lot. Like everybody brings value to community. Like we were saying earlier, like seeing each other is what's important. And that's what builds that sense of community, that sense of belonging, you know? I think that sense of belonging is a place where there's some work for us to do. You know, I've heard you talk about that more and more recently. And I've really appreciated that and feel like it's part of this idea of resiliency. Community starts with feeling like you belong.

You talked a little bit about the dominant culture and the way in which it kind of forces us to show up like we have it all together, we know everything. But I'm wondering if resilience were rooted in healing, support, and shared strength, what could that look like? Oh, wow, that would be awesome, wouldn't it? I think it's fun to imagine that. Like through these disasters that we've experienced as a community, people have had the chance to show up as community more and more. You know, I'm really proud of a lot of the work that we've done as a department in the area of building community and building resilience. And part of that is through these disasters and challenges that we faced. We've seen like, oh, we're kind of falling down in this area. So I think we're like just at the tip of starting to see those possibilities. That sense of feeling connected. That will be like one of the connected to the land, connected with each other. That's what that looks like to me and feels like. I appreciate you touching on that connection piece. I think resilience means connection to one another, to our larger organizations, and then of course to the land that we serve.

Thank you so much, Justin. I'm here with Sharla Benjamin, an engineer whose work blends technical problem solving with long-term resilience planning. Sharla, can you walk me through what the value of resilience brings up for you? Resilience for me is creating, sustaining, maintaining relationships with people, with the land, with just knowledge and understanding, deep understanding of what is around us and how we can move together to create something that, you know, we may not have ever been able to do on our own. So resilience is, yeah, being able to move forward through difficulties, through challenges, but having each other, supporting each other, supporting ourselves so we can help and be able to move and create new opportunities for people or for creating something new or recreating something that was previously there.

You touched on something really interesting, which was resilience means creating relationship with knowledge. Can you talk a little bit about that? So many times we think we know what we know and we only know a little piece of the puzzle. So a large part of what I do is kind of trying to find all these different pieces and put them together and help people be at the table together so they can understand each other as well. Just bringing all the puzzle pieces together so people can figure out how they want to either, you know, piece it back together or just push that aside and create something new. But that knowledge base is we each have a little bit and if we can bring it, you know, each of us bring our little piece to the table, we can often achieve beyond what any of us could have done individually.

I really like this idea of the puzzle. I find that sometimes I lose my puzzle pieces under the table and I don't even know where they are. So maybe bringing that to a more concrete example, how do you know who to invite to the table? That's hard because we're formed by our environment, by our experiences, by our existing relationships and it's through conversation and through building relationships with others that you realize, oh, we really need to talk to more and more and more people. So in all different directions and also find those people that have those relationships with the land that know the piece of the puzzle that was missing, that hadn't been there before for a lot of people for a long time. And it's just so many conversations and the ability to maybe not always create harmony, but help each other understand through truth and transparency and not just having a black box. Oh, you know, we listened to you and then we created the solution and you should be happy with it. No, it's like it's building, it's bringing everyone along on the process of that creation and then having to step back sometimes and totally reconfigure if we found if we're able to find those people, those relationships, that knowledge that we didn't know before this and be willing to change. You know, that's the biggest thing is that a lot of people aren't willing to change their minds, their hearts or project if it's far enough along. You think, oh, it's kind of this is the way it is and it doesn't matter if we get this new information. But it really does. I mean, we have to listen. We have to learn. We have to hear and we have to build together and continue those relationships because we need them in the future too. It's, you know, we may have lost certain relationships. Now, hopefully we don't just have them for a project. We maintain those relationships for future experiences together. And that just grows and grows and grows what we can do together.

I really appreciate that definition of resilience. It sounds like it's really grounded in relationship and relationship is hard and messy and complicated and requires trust. And sometimes that trust is broken maybe in a past project and you have to rebuild that. Can you talk about maybe the challenge of incorporating resilience into that? The systems that we have, the structures that we've created were only designed for certain individuals, certain groups. And so being able to open up our hearts and our minds to understanding that there's so much more beyond that, that we can, you know, willing to change, willing to listen. We can plan together. We can change systems, but it has to be through our heart, not just our minds. So it's that honesty. It's that truth in the relationship that helps us move forward, get through the messy stuff, forgive each other, you know, realize that we may be different on different days as well. We have to help support ourselves so that we can help others and then we can be able to help others. We need to be able to change ourselves so we're not stuck where we used to be. You touched on a lot of really important pieces there, right? Like there's been people missing from the conversation. I want to know more about, you know, what does an inclusive definition of resilience look like to you?

Inclusive definition of resilience would be first starting with transparency, starting with history, learning about our history and about each other, and then the willingness, the humility to say, hey, I wasn't taught that. I didn't know that. I didn't realize I was being that way. If we're able to change ourselves, we're able to move forward together in relationship, be able to work on the various projects that we need to work on together, re-imagine what our systems could be if we had the ability to have truth, transparency, justice.

I really appreciate you talking about that piece of re-imagining. I think it's so important to take the time to really think through that because if we can't imagine it, how are we ever going to achieve it?

I want to bring us back to something you said earlier around resilience and the ways in which resilience is hard. Can you maybe give me an example of a project that you've done or something that you've been a part of that has really incorporated resilience?

There's resilience in different parts of the projects that I've worked on. So there's, you know, the natural resilience with stream restoration and trying to undo damage that humans have done. Still work with people who are on the land and growing crops and trying to support themselves and our communities. So that's just trying to understand that the various people that really need to be in that conversation and bringing them to the table to create a little bit more trust, not just listen to them, but bring their ideas into the project so they can see it, see how their input made a difference.

And that we were able to do that on the St. Vrain project, one of our adaptive management projects after the flood. But we still have to maintain those relationships. It's not like it's a one done deal. So we have to keep working with them, keep making sure we know what's happening on the land and we are continuing to learn from the land and from each other, continuing to grow and change as we need to.

In the wildfire example, so much change that happens so quickly in a wildfire that it's hard to recover from some of that trauma. But there are people on the land that really understand, have had a relationship with the land and can be able to work with the people that are coming in new to that relationship with the land to understand all the different components that need to happen.

So in the example of the Calwood fire, the bats were a species I knew nothing about, how they needed their water on the landscape and how fire had transformed the ability for those bat species to be able to get water, especially the maternity colonies. And so we were trying to brainstorm any way we could to get that water available for the bats on the land.

So it's partners are not just humans and they're not just, you know, they're also all the species that we know about that we can help. But if we don't know about certain things, we often overlook it and ignore it. So that's why we just need to keep the conversations and the relationships growing over time, strengthening, listening to voices that are not often listened to. And it feels good because then it's fun to learn new things and it's fun to have those relationships.

Thank you so much, Sharla. I really feel like I got a sense for how important relationship is within resilience and how it's not only about our relationships with one another, but our relationships with the land and making sure that we continue those with deep care. Thank you so much.

Thank you. Huge thanks to our guests for sharing their stories and insights, as well as Longmont Public Media for providing a recording space. Please follow us on social media. We're on Instagram, Facebook and YouTube. And don't forget to subscribe to our podcast series, Voices of Open Space, for more stories from the field, the forest and the folks behind the work on your favorite platform. Until then, take care and we'll see you out on the trail. Thank you.